Shoulda Been Bigger: How Star Wars Killed Babylon 5

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1. James Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 16:59

   Firefly and Serenity where two of the best acted and well written sci-fi ever. If only fox had stayed with it, and given it it's proper due.

1. Brad Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 17:04

   While I have great love for all the shows you have named. How many Sci-Fi shows have ever successfully transitioned to movies? How many were successful first time out? How many flopped on the sequel? Its a hard transition, its hard to get an audience if you try to continue the story. You can try remakes/reinventions which are sometimes very good, but mostly abominations. We have the series on DVD (Though Farscape is out of print) and there are always promising new series coming out. The show creators are still out there, still coming up with ideas new and continuations such as the Farscape webisodes and comic book deal. You say we are living on Star Wars nostalgia only to discuss Farscape, Firefly, B5 nostalgia of your own. As great as those shows are we have to enjoy them for what they were, not what they could have been. We need to be looking for the next Farscape of Firefly and support it.

1. Dargas Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 17:04

   I can't agree more.
   
   Im a 501st legion (starwars costuming group) member with an aproved esb darth vader suit. ive been a fan of SW for over 30 years and though it all i have to admit thet i'm more a fan at heart of babylon 5 and farscape than ill ever be of starwars.
   
   yeah sure, starwars gave me toys, gave me thrills and stark visual emotion but i never laughed with starwars as I did with Farscape, i never cryied of sheer joy on character development as I did on babylon 5 or felling my heart stopping with the cliffhangers and turning of events that both series had (b5 the most)
   
   The fenomenon i don't quite yet understand is why do we have to blind ourselves to the magic other series can offer in our blind pursuit of the starwars franchise. It's like if you become a fan of something else then you're a traitor that deseres to be shot!
   
   Being a fan of SW does not mean that for it to stay nice and cool you need to forget and sabotage if you can, any other franchises out there.
   
   Stracynski's Babylon 5 did what it came to do, to tell a wonerful and enthralling story of larger than life proportions with characters that became more important, to those who followed the show, than the story itself wich, to say the least, it's what makes Babylon 5 unique. I laugh and cry and dispair with it and theres not one time in wich i don cry my eyes out when seeing "Gone in light".
   
   Farscape has everything that starwars SHOULD have had regarding character and story development and effects that, for the show and time where BEYOND what you saw in other shows. Still Starwars reigned if complete and absolute rule over the minds of the fans around the world.
   
   why is that... why is it that no matter what happens with it, that no matter what luas does to rape and pillage the original trilogy with the new installments we, the fans, continue to support it?
   
   easy... we know nothing more. star wars has become part of society's instruction. we grew, as new generations are wroging, with starwars and we where teached y the media and the comercial machines that anything that's not starwars is just a spinoff.
   
   and that's sad.
   
   people that tell me they didn't gave a shot at B5 say that they didn't watch it because of the special effects that where crappy... theses people are the kind of spectators that NEED eye candy for the "thing"to work and catch attention.
   The ones that say they didn't followed Farscape state that they didn't because it was full of muppets (A ridiculous exageration actually) and it looked to be a children series. (another ridiculous exageration)
   these spectators, again, go to the eye candy basis of starwars to critizise a wonderful series.
   
   and then theres the ppl that Did watch them from start to finish and LIKED IT. what do these fans say about it? what to we discus about it?
   
   the story, the character development and every little bit of interweaved drama between all of it. Eye Candy is out of the chat. the special effects are nothing more than a tool to enrich the writing and the characters that, if done correcly as B5 and Farscape did wonderfully, is not needed to be of epic (stawarslike) proportions to become a great and succesfull mixture.
   
   starwars on the other hand does (leave aside the first original movies) exactly the oposite. Eye candy is the treat of the day! crappy story arcs that only a fan in his nerdy fadomised mind can discuss over hours ot make any real sense out of them and thus explaining, story wise, the idocy of the story inconsistencies. Crappy characters that live to make everything worse and amzing characters that are the first to be destroyed in the most idiculous and CRAPPY ways GL could find... does Darth Maul rings a bell?...does Grievous?
   
   Let's face, we are living in the Eye Candy Industry of the starwars social general culture Empire.... and we, the fans (exclude the rebels that did gave chances to B5, Farcape, Firefly and others a chance and kep them alive in our hearts and keep showing them to others) are the only ones to blame becase we have lazy brains that if everything and anything is mindblowing with special effects and the story is not explained is preposterous detail from the begginning so you dont have to make your lazy brain think, then we dislike immediately and throw to the garbage.
   
   we are the ones to blame, nothing more, because we took the bait and became happy that everything as done for our imaginations becase starwars has everything we need to fantazyse ourselves form our daily lives.
   
   such a shame.
   
   
   Richard "Dargas" Vargas.
   501st member (Darth Vader) and general sci fi/Fantasy fan.
   
   Long live Babylon 5 and Farscape!
   
   p.d.
   please excuse my english and typing.
   C'ya

1. Brian Smith Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 17:04

   Very nice article, thank you :)
   
   JMS said that any B5 movie project would have to wait till the Star Wars prequels were done. (from http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-10863&query=b5%20movie%20star%20wars)
   
   
   ...and definitely raises the idea that maybe there
   shouldn't be a B5 movie until after the last of the three new SW films is out and done. Ain't no way any other SF film project can compete with that.
   
   
   Me, I much prefer B5. I remember going with some friends of mine to see the re-released Star Wars in 1997. It felt like it was over *so* quickly..."is that it?", I thought. Having been immersed in the dense, layered B5 story line for several years I measured all TV against it, and it always won. Even to this day, the only show I enjoyed as much was The Wire, though I have never gone back to watch previous episodes again. I've seen most B5 episodes many, many times :)

1. Richard Brunton (Filmstalker) Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 17:04

   Oh that's a cracking point and well made Josh, I'm with you 100%, Babylon 5 could have been huge, and more importantly it deserved to be.
   
   I also believe that it helped redefine Star Trek, which up until then had really been episodic and when B5 showed that the series spanning complex plot threads and story lines could really be followed by an audience they leapt on board. When B5 stopped they even started taking their writers over.
   
   B5 was a stunning series, and it could be argued that on a smaller scale it did for science fiction television series what The Dark Knight did for superhero films...or rather it should be seen that way.

1. Jon Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 17:04

   I love B5, I've always tried to get my friends interested in, like, THE BEST written show I've ever seen. Babylon 5 will always hold a special place in my geeky heart. I love Star Wars, but I now hate the baggage that those four words now have.

1. heartless_ Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 17:04

   I'm just strange I guess. To me, Firefly and Serenity were OK, not great. Babylon 5 was OK, not great. Star Wars prequels were from horrible to OK, not great. Star Trek in its many forms was from horrible to OK, not great. Star Wars was the only one, that at some point, was great and I don't know why so many people want to forget that.
   
   I don't absolve Lucas of the stupidity of the prequels, but I don't throw away the success that is to be found there.
   
   Star Wars will be a Sci Fi mainstay for a long time, no matter how bad the movies get. Personally I like Clone Wars and felt it was the better of the prequel-era films, better than Serenity, better than Farscape, better than whatever they tried to put a Star Trek label on lately. To me, that speaks to the power of the underlying universe.
   
   I am more than happy to vote with my wallet for all OK Sci Fi, which includes Star Wars.

1. Carol Hill Says:
   August 18th, 2008 at 22:24

   Just want to say that while I do agree that the latest incarnations of Star Wars were horribly over hyped and disappointing when viewed - I didn't miss out on Farscape, Babylon 5 or Firefly.
   
   And not one of those three franchises when quietly into that goodnight. Financially, B5: The Lost Tales did much better than expected or predicted. Fans of Firefly were so angry that Joss Whedon was able to bring that universe to the big screen with the movie "Serenity" (all original cast returned). And Farscape - due to unprecedented fan reaction (and an unnamed consortion of British financiers - not the Sci Fi Channel, no matter what they would like viewers to think) - not only got a four hour mini-series complete with the original cast AND crew - but it is now returning again in webisodes written and produced by series creators Rockne O'Bannon and Brian Henson.
   
   There was nothing quiet about Farscape cancellation OR its resuscitation(s).
   I am not intereted in Clone Wars. But I sure the heck can't wait for new B5, new Firefly and definitely new Farscape.

1. Anakin Says:
   August 20th, 2008 at 03:18

   Josh, I'd like to point out a mistake in your article. Star Wars: The Clone Wars was NOT a "financial flop". The movie was budgeted at $4 million and made so far $23.5 million worldwide. Hardly a "financial flop".
   
   http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwarsclonewars.htm
   
   On a personal note: i'm a huge fan of both star wars and babylon 5 (i watched every single episodes when they aired for the first time back in the 90s), but I really don't believe for a second that Crusade was cancelled because of Star Wars.
   
   Crusade was cancelled because of internal politics at TNT. JMS, the man himself, explained this a long time ago that TNT was trying to change the series into something completely different then what it was meant to be. JMS said no and TNT cancelled the show. That is what really happened. Google it for more information if you're curious.
   
   As for Farscape, Firefly and Serenity,.. I tried watching several episodes of Farscape but I couldn't get into it. The show felt ridiculous most of the time. I had enough of the drama in every episode and i felt the show was going nowhere. Besides, after you watch B5, nothing really ever comes close to it.
   
   Firefly was a stupid concept from the start since, as history showed us, western and scifi NEVER do well. Case in point: Futureworld and Wild Wild West. Firefly was a show that was supposed to be cancelled after about 13 episodes but FOX agreed to keep it going for a few more episodes because of a few fans demanding it. And even then, at 20 episodes later, it failed to attract any viewers.
   
   Then Serenity came on the big screen. Really? Who the hell had the bright idea to give Joss Whedon $39 million budget for a movie based on a cancelled and short-lived (20 eps) tv show? Yeah like that would've worked. It didn't take a genius to know that was a mistake from the get-go. If you're going to adapt a show at least make sure it was successful for an entire season!
   
   No, the only reason some people liked firefly and serenity is because of the hype surrounding Whedon because of his Buffy/Angel stuff. This guy has nowhere the amount of actual talent a real science fiction writer like JMS has. Joe wrote 3 actual science fiction novels, wrote several successful comic miniseries including Rising Stars and Midnight Nation. Has written for "The Amazing Spider-Man" comic book (the flagship book for Marvel comics) for 6 whole years, wrote "Fantastic Four" and now "Thor". All successful runs. And now he's the hottest new writer in hollywood as his script for "The Changeling" was made into a new film by Clint Eastwood coming soon. He also has several more theatrical films coming soon. What has Joss Whedon done?
   
   So, no. I respectfully disagree about Star Wars making science fiction shows on tv go away. Are we forgetting that Stargate Sg1 and Stargate Atlantis was on tv during the prequels? Both intelligent shows for the thinking person out there. And what of Battlestar Galactica? That show was announced as being cancelled (2007) well after episode 3 came out (2005). I think that what happened is that people woke up and realized that there is good scifi and then there's crap. I'm sorry but Farscape, Firefly and Serenity was all crap.
   
   

1. Captain Dunzel Says:
   August 20th, 2008 at 23:15

   Great article and I'm in total agreement on the B5 coulda shoulda woulda. It was interesting when we had TWO space station series on at the same time. One in a familiar Federated universe and the other in...the what?...Third Age of Man? Middle Earth? Khazad-Dum? Nevertheless, I sure made two hours a week to find out.
   
   I always felt thta the BIG story, the great IDEAS and the special effects were what made the show. It usually wasn't the characters (except Garibaldi). Did I really care that Dr. Franklin went on walk-about? That Sheridan might die when jumping into the depths? But the stories! The time-jumping intertwining! Bringing back Jeffrey Sinclair so that beginning becomes the end. Brilliant!
   
   The acting was capable and at times great. Especially Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas. They made the motivations and reactions of their characters extremely believable.
   
   However, I always felt I was hearing B movie dialogue: enjoyable, understandable, but never transcending beyond its here and now meaning. It also at times (rarely though) seemed to be schlepping out dialog to fill the time.
   
   As to why the show was less than HUGE and why it didn't become a cultural phenomenon?
   
   Characters?
   ST:DS9 often went beyond Babylon 5 in creating greater character depth. Looking back at that show through the passage of time, I think it was more ambitious than any of the other ST sequels. But it took the vision and influence of Bablyon 5 to lift DS9 to its eventual A game in its later seasons.
   
   Dialog?
   It was at times forced. I always thought the prosaic dialog lived at a different, lesser plane than the high-reaching concepts and sweep of the overall story. That divergence may have kept the show from being a single, perfect gem. But...
   
   I LOVED Babylon 5. I LOVED its epic sweep and never-ending jaw-dropping ideas. It at times had an obtuseness about it (did their son David live or die at the end? I still don't know), but that often added to its depth and mystery.
   
   Babylon 5 was a true telenovel. Not a big screen adventure. Telenovels feed the mind, treat the eyes and keep you tuning in. But mabye they don't become HUGE. I don't know. Coulda should woulda.
   
   
   
   

1. Valen\'s Shadow Says:
   August 25th, 2008 at 21:32

   Anakin, while you were correct about crusade being cancelled because of internal politics at TNT. You could also argue that the writer of the original article is also correct. TNT wanted all flash and no substance with wrestling stars and all kinds of dumb ideas. It could be argued that is exactly what the Star Wars effect was. The mainstream, middle America or whatever didn't want complex well-written stories weaving from week to week. They want nothing but flashy effects and a story to wrap up neatly at the end of every episode. Whereas the real fans of sci-fi wanted more, perhaps having more patients to give new ideas a chance.
   
   Whoever thought that Muppets in Space (Farscape) and A Weston in Space (Firefly) would be any good. Not me and not most people. Although unlike most people I stuck with both shows and was richly rewarded.
   
   Firefly - sure I am a Buffy fan but I came to the show as a sci-fi fan and to be honest I was initially disappointed. Actually I didn't want to like it because it replaced another show On Fox that I really liked. I didn't like the pilot on first viewing but still tuned in each and every week afterwards to find myself liking the show more and more, until I was sad when the last episode was shown. Unlike you as an American you saw the show without watching in the correct episode order. Regardless of how that would have improved the storyline for you the fact remains that Firefly was a superbly written show, it was extremely well produced, well acted and even now is gaining an ever growing fan base for the first time on DVD.
   
   Now I need to correct you.
   
   Fox was never keen on Firefly, in fact after seeing the pilot they demanded a new one be created this time only one hour in length. When the show came to air they poorly promoted it, it was placed in a poor time-slot, shown out of order and if I remember correctly only 12 been episodes of Firefly were actually shown. Yes that's correct only 15 episodes were made. Now do you want to know why serenity came on the big screen? It was because it had a much larger fan-base than Fox believed and to the point that once it was released on DVD Firefly made an absolute killing. I think you'll find Firefly is one of the highest selling DVDs, selling so many universal thought it was worthwhile making serenity.
   
   Unfortunately universal didn't promote Serenity well. They just didn't know how to market a Western sci-fi otherwise it would have done much better. Regardless Serenity performed well especially given there was no "star power" to help sell the movie. It was also critically well-received and bet be honest it stood head and shoulders over Star Wars revenge of the Sith. Serenity has since gone on to sell exceptionally well to the point that universal commissioned a new 2 disc special edition!
   
   As for Farscape you have missed a gem of a series, my second favourite show of all time after Babylon 5, by not giving the show a chance. Like Babylon 5 quite a few of the early 1st season episodes aren't that great but once Farscape hit its stride it really has a strong final third of season 1. Then over the course of another three seasons really becomes a masterpiece of quality sci-fi.
   
   Now offence that Stargate and Stargate Atlantis are far from great. Stargate is this generation's Star Trek, its mainstream, it simple, it's just the average middle of the road science fiction.
   
   Of course Anakin if you don't like well written imaginative sci-fi with rich developed characters, well acted, high production values, then maybe Farscape and Firefly are not for you.

1. stargazer Says:
   November 10th, 2008 at 14:06

   The beauty of science-fiction is its ability to grant humanity the chance to picture itself in a distant future. It is both; a commentary on our present and a reflection on what our future could be like. Over the years sci-fi more than any other genre gave me great thrills. As a die hard fan, I’ve always loved Star Wars, these movies were bigger than life, with jaw dropping action and of course a storyline that kept you coming for more. The expanded universe of SW allows fans to remain in that world and I love it.
   
   However, it drives me mad when I hear that B5 or Farscape are not groundbreaking series of their own. The wonder that is B5 was very well explained in prior postings, so I’ll just add this to it. B5, remains for me one of the most endearing sci-fi series I’ve ever came across. As for Farscape, how can anyone even compare it to a lame Endeavour such as Stargate? As a sci-fi fan I’m usually willing to give a chance to any new series, but honestly I could never stomach Stargate, the characters never stayed with me, the storyline was borderline idiotic and of course just when you think the nightmare is going to end, they go out and make a spin off (stargate Atlantis). The only think that remotely interested me in Stargate was the involvement of Claudia Black and Ben Browder.
   
   

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